Locking and unlocking SFT yearly

General Discussion
#21

I may be wrong on this, but I don’t agree with trying to regulate on this matter.

I believe that the fees are a DUE to the ones that have SFT and have chosen to lock them in to receive their DUE !

And also that it is the limit of their rights, meaning that they don’t have the right on anybody else’s DUE.

You cannot impose conditions on a DUE, on everyone, because of the odd chance of a “ghost wallet” !!

I’m sorry, but I invested, and when I lock my tokens I expect to receive my due without conditions for how ever long I wish.
I value this, and don’t seek after anybody else’s due, and don’t believe I have a right to.
If they don’t touch it for 5 years it’s their right, it’s theirs to do what ever they want without conditions !
And also I should not have to claim what is mine !

Again; the only condition that is agreed upon is to have SFT locked in, period !
You can’t hold payment to someone who has locked in his SFT, and say but you must do this also…

If you permit, here are some Bible verses for reflection;

Proverbs 3:27-28
Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.

Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

James 5:4
Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.

Leviticus 19:13
“You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning.

Jeremiah 22:13
“Woe to him who builds his house by unrighteousness, and his upper rooms by injustice, who makes his neighbor serve him for nothing and does not give him his wages,

1 Timothy 5:18
For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”

Deuteronomy 24:14-15
“You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your brothers or one of the sojourners who are in your land within your towns. You shall give him his wages on the same day, before the sun sets (for he is poor and counts on it), lest he cry against you to the Lord, and you be guilty of sin.

Malachi 3:5
“Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts.

3 Likes
#22

FYI, you will have to lock in SFT

2 Likes
#23

Yes, thanks.

#24

I will also add this;

I feel uneasy that something that “I” -locked- would become unlocked by itself !!

I thought that Crypto was about having control, and controling your Keys etc… !

Isn’t it how we all lose control ?
When on the assumption that “some” won’t control their Keys proper, “we” start to mess with a good thing ?

1 Like
#25

it’s based on node consensus, the rules aren’t locked in, ever. always remember that. the rules can be changed later as long as there is consensus.

it could start out under the terms you’re demanding, which is you can leave your SFX to rot in the ecosystem 5 years. but 2 years later the rules could change and you wouldn’t know until 3 years later.

secondly, this is about what’s best for the marketplace and ecosystem, not just what’s preferred by SFT holders.

3 Likes
#26

I don’t think this is the place for bible verses mate. Perhaps consider we are talking about the initial rules, these will change over time. Should you lock in and set and forget, then the rules change, you are in trouble. The control should reside with the wallet owner, but that doesn’t mean that same person can abdicate their own responsibility to maintain their wallet.

4 Likes
#27

There’s also right and wrong and theft etc.

Who said anything about preferences ?
Not me !
I’m talking about what should and should not be !
Just Belittling and downplaying much ?

#28

I’m not your mate !

“I don’t think this is the place for bible verses mate.”
Is that your rule ?

“Perhaps consider we are talking about the initial rules, these will change over time.”
Yeah “we” are talking, well I talked also and said my peace !

You can go ahead and state what you believe I won’t stop you.
I said what I believe, would be nice to leave it at that and not belittle each other !
Peace.

1 Like
#29

Sorry mate, didn’t realise I was dealing with an arsehole.

My mistake, apologies for this.

5 Likes
#30

@Rob I’m sure @dandabek will clarify himself, but I think you’ve misunderstood his statement…

He is NOT saying that a SFT-locked ghost wallet would return the accrued SFX to the network. My understanding is that any autounlock feature that gets implemented would send any accumulated SFX to the appropriate wallet, but it would simply cause it to unlock and thus not continue to accrue SFX forever, pointlessly.

The objective of this it to eliminate ghost wallets from infinite SFX accruals, not steal the SFX already accrued.

A simple ‘keep alive’ check will allow all active holders to continue receiving their accruals, but the last thing any of us want is for SFX to get sent to ghost wallets forever and thus dilute the returns to active wallets.

7 Likes
#31

Correct aussiesloth

2 Likes
#33

Sincerely, in the first place: accruing and then claiming dues is 98% chance the only way we will go forward at least initially because it is the least strenuous on the network. automatically available meaning the network itself must distribute it is going to cause a burden, until empirical proof in the wild shows otherwise;

The keep alive makes sense as well: suppose someone locked in and died: or locked in and lost their private key. The keep alive could be baked into the claim transaction there is no need to make a special extra transaction to keep the lockin alive.

I think that the only way to continue the discussion is to review the logistical economic impacts of ghost wallets before we can reach any conclusions on the matter.

6 Likes
#34

I was covering both bases in my post.

The first half was the straight forward solution and requires no more than what will be implemented anyhow, the claiming of the safex cash is the indication the account is not a ghost account.

The second (larger) half was mainly just in case anyone was thinking of removing safex cash.

Yes there was some of the first in the second, but I’m sure once you know my intent then the post is easy enough to understand. And yes I know Dan will make himself clear, I have been “with” him since before safex crowdsale. EDIT: I see he did :slight_smile:

3 Likes
#35

First of all, I think there is a small misunderstanding, there will never be any SFX removed from any wallet, that’s something that would be wrong and rightly considered as stealing.

It’s only about the qustion if a ghost wallet will keep getting new SFX and therewith taking them away from supply…

We shouldn’t forget that this project is not about creating a shitcoin that will only have speculative value which might even be increased with disappearing coins, it’s about a creating a Currency that should be used and therefore keep flowing.

The main idea behind having a “keep alive” funktion is not that active SFT wallets get more coins, but that the coins remain to their initial purpose as currency…

I also would prefer that I could just lock it in, keep my wallet always offline and come 10 years later back and harvest what I got, but it can’t be about personal preferences, it’s about getting the best marketplace with the best CURRENCY out there…

PS: I always love reading bible verses, but I don’t like to seeing them used out of context. They are not about Investments, but about actual labor.
In the time the bible was given not getting your daily wages could mean not being able to feed your family for that day.
It’s definitely not about passive income and the difference of investing 3 Minutes to claim / keep alive your wallet once a year or not…

3 Likes
#36

I just don’t buy that greed, power, control, is not part of this conversation !
Hiding behind the interest of the marketplace or currency.

It is part of man’s history, and our present day !
Corporations, Banks, classes, etc… greed, power, control,…

What ever we try to build we are all still men !
So lets not kid ourselves that our motivations are always pure and never guided by self interest.

It is my hope that the market will survive this !
I just don’t think that the market is in mortal danger from ghost wallets !
Yeah it would be great if we somehow eliminated them to get more SFX, but not at the cost of being no different then the system we hope to get away from.

1 Like
#37

Since I was the first who brought up this “ghost wallet” issue I made a little model.

The parameters are:
Quarterly velocity of money: 5
Fee for all transactions: 5%
Ghost wallets: 1% of all locked SFT supply beginning with year 10.

After another 10 years, the ghosts have collected 100 million SFX

ghosts
ghosts945×514 61.5 KB

If you increase the Velocity of Money to 10 and the ghost wallets to flat 2% of all locked SFT from year 10 to year 20, then the ghost wallets are collecting 400 million SFX in this time frame.

My conclusion: Short to mid term the issue is irrelevant. Very long term (20y) half of the total SFX supply or even more could have accumulated in inactive locked in wallets.

You can argue you don’t care whether the “liquid” SFX supply is reduced to 50% or even less of the original supply since SFX is highly divisible - this is up to you.

Source for VoM: https://safexnews.net/money-cash-model-prediction-safex-cash-trading-price/
“Therefore, we propose a likely velocity for SxC of between 5 and 20 quarterly .”

6 Likes
#38

That’s a huge sink against the circulating supply; if its about removing self interests claim acting as keep alive should do the trick with a interval of say 12 months to come forward to claim (to be determined);

I also believe that on the expiration, when you become a ghost wallet those SFX should still be claimable; it’s just that future ones wont accrue until you lock in again or simply claim your original amount and it will restart earnings again.

6 Likes
#40

Exactly. This way the you can still claim all fees up to the expiration date of the “keep alive” message, which you can extend with the “keep alive/claim”-function. You just miss out the fees afterwards until you lock in again. I would not consider this as active “robbing” of wallets. For example if the claim of fees expires after you locked in for 100,000 blocks and you only claim after 110,000 blocks and don´t extend via keep-alive function you would still receive your fees for the first 100,000 blocks.

P.S.: I only punched some numbers in to see the very long-term effect. God knows what happens in 10 to 20 years. Anyway, what does the community think is a realistic number for lost locked in tokens in 10 years?

2 Likes
#41

There is no treasury the network itself encumbers your earning so only you can process its passing from encumbrance.

#42

Am I right with my assumption that all fees will be gathered in one address and then redistributed to holders from there?
So A buys something from B
SFX flows from A to B (purchase)
Miner fee flows from A to C (tx fee)
Fee flows from A to D (fee-pot)
Fees get redistributed from D to SFT holders