Bankers, lawyers and politicians… you always can see when they are lying: Their lips are moving.
It’s almost funny to hear the CEO of JP Morgan (Jamie Dimon) using the word ‘fraud’. I guess ‘his’ bank has recovered from the $13 billion fine it received for FRAUD in the (centralised) financial market causing the 2007/2008 global financial meltdown, which pushed, in the USA alone, 43 million people into immediate poverty.
DD has spoken on this topic before and I couldn’t agree more with him: The word “illegal” is subjective. If this is a global exchange, then we cannot run off legalities. These will vary country to country. In my opinion, this is why Safex and Chille is immensely valuable.
Am I having my fingers crossed hoping its a Silk Road/Child porn? No. Am I fully aware what a decentralized, anonymous market place entails? Yes.
Peace
Very few of you are really grasping the big picture here. You are not in control and the government is not in control of Safe Exchange. No government or person can shut down or regulate Safe Exchange. All this talk of the government having any control over either the exchange or decentralized currencies in general is hilarious. Don’t you think that if they could shut down bitcoin, they would have by now. This whole fear of government is nonsense. They Don’t have the means to do anything of the sort. They are at the will of people like us and how much we collectively decide what the value of bitcoin is. When it comes to voting rights. They will be more along the lines of block sizes, difficulty curves, etc… Don’t think for a second that you will get to decide what Tom is aloud to sell to Marvin. Noone ever said anything of the sort. In fact that would completely defeat the purpose of a free anonymous market. Those decisions would be made on a much higher level having nothing to do with legal or moral ramifications. There’s not going to be some switch to shut it off, noone is going to be able to coax the development team into giving any one government control. When the exchange is live it will be unstoppable. That is it’s entire purpose. To think anything contrary is delusional. If you have a problem with supporting a decentralised anonymous market such as this. But not with investing in a company such as Halliburton, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Lockheed Martin, Coca-Cola, Pfizer, etc… Then you’re just being a hypocrite. As those companies produce more death and destruction in a single hour than Safe Exchange could do in a lifetime if it tried. Sure you may not own stock in any of these examples. But, if you’re drinking a coke, paying your taxs and taking your prescribed pharmaceuticals. You are just as guilty by association.
Yes, its not as if the government can touch the network in any way of significance.
But if people take on the role of censoring/regulating content then they also take on the responsibility for what remains.
This is the issue and the USA has demonstrated they will attempt to go after people. For instance they would attempt to issue court orders to obtain the IP address of all here. The New Zealand guy who ran the big upload storage site had a fierce battle with the US government and almost ended up in their jails. Wikileaks guy has to stay holed up in an embassy to stay out of the USA grips and loads more people are rounded up by local and international police when they deliberately/inadvertently enable the distribution of vile material.
So its not the network that is at any risk but anyone the US government can identify by court orders on this hosting site or by any other means.
Thus my call NOT to censor trades.
Just ban people from listing then we are not seen to be controlling content and thus because its an open market place will not have responsibility for individual trades.
I do remember that there was a thought by Dan that the safex holder would have the voting rights on trusted sellers etc. So while government cannot affect things safex holders were going to have some abilities built in.
In any case my warnings is only IF and only IF the ability is built into the network.
Well, i came up with an idea while anwering a question in another thread.
Working with API Calls and hooks and having templates … that way safex being “neutral”
Let me know your thoughts please:
https://forum.safex.org/t/features-for-chili-e-commerce-platform/2065/2?u=johnx
Well, a feature i would like to see is, that you can have an API hook to your safex/Chille account on the blockchain and thus have a GUI to access it with future template-shops over the regular internet (for legal goods) or even TOR (for other things).
That way you can mimic portals like Shopify in a secure enviroment (and unseizable) without a 3rd party involved, while having stored everything secure on the blockchain, along with a payment system.
“Legal” shops could even offer payment providers if needed -> Paypal to Safex to Network and pay their taxes and other shops will probably not, but this is their cup of tea then.
The good thing about this approach is, that safex only acts as a “host” and the content illegal or not is up to the pop-up shop owner.
The wallet marketplace would then act like google to find the goods, identify the shop and get an idea where to shop with GUI or shop right in the wallet - probably for Pro-Users - and the average Joe might not even notice that he has just shopped his Kamagra or Shoes in a next-gen safex-shop.
We can all discuss this at length, but when one is really honest to him/herself…
Yearly I donate $5000 to the Tanzanian Wildlife Services to protect and conserve the wildlife in the Serengeti. Every year, around the 20th of December, I seek out a homeless person and provide him/her with a shower, a shave, new clothes, a meal, a listening ear and $500 for the holiday season. Why I do this? 1. because I can and 2. probably to make myself feel better.
Yet when the homeless man/woman or the endangered elephant have to be sacrificed for my $150 million Safex gain, I will be in front of the line and probably shoot the elephant myself, after I encouraged it to kill the homeless person.
In other words: when investing, all my moral standards exist only when the financial potential is still a hypotheses. When the hypotheses becomes real, my moral standards will definitely not be a hurdle to me. “Sorry the gun purchased on the Safex marketplace killed your kid, but be honest… me choosing between a circular pool or kidney shaped pool is much more important right now”!
I think this is a good idea, but how can you tell a persons full intention on the net. I believe to an extent perhaps. I personally would not vote down illegal activity when drugs are concerned. While I don’t take them myself. I truly believe people should have the right to choose there experiences in this regard. As far as something like weapons. I would probably vote against them. Mostly because of the negative attention they would bring or I would vote individually. I am probably a hypocrite in this regard. As far as services and things that could directly hurt people like hit men type stuff or sick sex traffic type stuff. I think and hope everyone would vote against that and maybe it would not occur in the first place. Trade should be free and people should be treated as adults. We can all do our own due diligence.
Thats really honest. I respect that immensely.
You tell by the trades. So if someone puts up something that violates some T&C (if safex ever does) and then ban the ueser which also deletes any trades they have put up.
This has to be the worse of the worse stuff as others have said what’s illegal in one place is legal in another. Thats why I suggested the international police’s worse of the worse list that most nations agree to. And its the abuse of others stuff, especially against the young ones.
Freedom is nothing more than being able to handle the temptation of losing it. That’s how free market places work as well.
Freedom does require some regulation. Not really based on enforcing them all the time, but to set a moral boundary. These are the laws to apply for citizenship in Liberland: “Liberland is currently looking for people who have respect for other people and respect the opinions of others, regardless of their race, ethnicity, orientation, or religion, have respect for private ownership which is untouchable, and have not been punished for past criminal offences”. Quite simple to enforce as well. Break any of those… not welcome or out!
Ecclesiastes 7:16;
Don’t be excessively righteous, and don’t be overly wise. Why should you destroy yourself?
Drugs are a choice so I’m fine with that option and those products on the marketplace but I wouldn’t want the money from a transaction taking place from human trafficking of people (like men,women and children). Its “blood money” to me because, human trafficking unlike Drug use is most often times not a choice.
I would say I"m fine with anything being in the marketplace up for sale. But not human trafficking of people (Slaves). Think about the stories and the negative press that would surround Safex.
Other than this, put anything and everything you want in the marketplace.
I vote that all guns both auto and semi automatics be on the marketplace, if it shoots bullets put it up their
Anything which involves forcible sexual exploitation of children and or adults, and or snuff films is something I would want vote to be removed immediately as this is just evil.
Would I put my wealth ahead of that? Hell no
Hence the fact that voting rights are given to safex coin holders
I feel we are talking different things here…?
Pointless to ask what we know is right and wrong and pure evil .
The question is not if we agree on what’s good or bad , but what is in our power, to control and or stop evil actions inside the market.
How much control we have or not will determine the extent of our responsibility !
There is always a limit to our responsibility, it does not always all depend on us.
When TOYOTA builds a truck, its responsibility is to make it the best it can !
If people make human trafficking using TOYOTA trucks is TOYOTA to blame ?
Are they responsible ?
Should they police every people buying TOYOTA’s ?
Isn’t that the role of country’s where there is the rule of law ?
What about the “dollars” used in the trafficking, should the BANKS be held responsible ?
What about the roads being used ?
What about the tire manufacturers ?
What about the air that these bastards are breading ?
What if someone gets killed with a knife…should the knife manufactures be held responsible ?
All I’m saying is lets keep our heads and do the best we can without going overboard.
If you think even with our best efforts there is a chance that bad people will do bad things and you are losing sleep over it, then make a donation somewhere where you think it will do good.
While writhing this I’m thinking of the PC (politically correct) BS used by politicians to mess and control peoples minds !
Lets not go that route.
What you say is so true.
I’d add to this that if people take on the role of policing the market place then the market place loses the “common carrier” style of protection too. And the “policing” had better be good because by doing so the owners of safex coin will become responsible for the things bought/sold. This then has implications when some of the safex owners can be identified (say through court orders on the hosting company hosting this forum).
To vote on adverts then safex holders assume the responsibility of what is advertised. And each country will have different laws so then anyone on this forum could be identified and then movement across borders is limited.
In other words, @thxo1138 its not just a view on things but essential that we do not start “policing” adverts or else we all assume a responsibility for what is advertised.
I did suggest that if and only if everyone wanted to do something then allow the banning of the actual advertiser, without regard to the actual adverts. Then we are just like a store owner who refuses custom to a person, its not policing adverts but barring certain people and thus not taking on the responsibility. But that is if and only if.
You will have to regulate it … if you want that serious sellers are using safex you have to put a red line …
otherwise they will sell their stuff elshwere because they want not to sell their legal stuf on a platform where you can sell child porn or other stuff. just think what bad PR that would be for them!!
the community has to decide if it wants become a black market or an attractive market for normal and legal retailers and so on …
both will not work …
and why shouldnt we … every market place does it… !!
Just by reading this forum Ive changed my mind as to where I stand on these topics. Child porn , human trafficking , guns and drugs. These are all things by some degree , in which we each have an opinion, which ,in this marketplace’s case , is driven by a level of guilt I guess, through concern , that we may be seen as facilitating them.
Decentralized should mean exactly that. Free from regulation and control. Free from outside influence. Free use of your money, for whatever we see fit. This freedom is the most important part of the crpto revolution for me. I will live with the fact that alot of the worlds social and economic problems , have stemmed from regulation or over governance , especially of our financial systems and hope with all my heart that we, the people , can repair them , one problem at a time , with the current systems of commerce ,being the head of the snake we cut off.